Freedom From Religion Foundation
Someone asked about a thread to discuss the actions of a group called “Freedom From Religion Foundation” who recently made some noise against the practice of having a prayer offered at a Kindergarten Graduation. As far as I have been able to determine nothing official has been done by this group other than to make a complaint to the school director.
This is from their website:
“Welcome to the Freedom from Religion Foundation
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.”
As you can see they have taken the liberty to re-write much of western history to show them in a more favorable light. The truth is however that they are just another anti American, God hating, pseudo-intellectual, group of liberals set on the banishment of other peoples freedoms in favor of their own.
Understanding that the worship of God is only one small part of what being religious means, there are few groups that are as religious as atheist. The dictionary defines religion as “the service and worship of God or the supernatural.” A second definition is “a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices”. Basically it’s this belief and practice, that man is the only god, that has become the atheist‘s religion. While man may possess many great traits and abilities he has yet to create one single solitary thing, the best he has been able to do is re-arrange and combine things that were already here.
For me every person has the right to worship anything they choose but they have no right to prevent me from exercising that same right. Sacrificing babies on the alter of selfishness is disgusting yet I must accept that some believe in that religion. The difference is that when a person practices that religion it becomes the most hideous of murders and steals the rights of that child, thus imposing another’s destructive will on them.
This is from their website:
“Welcome to the Freedom from Religion Foundation
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.”
As you can see they have taken the liberty to re-write much of western history to show them in a more favorable light. The truth is however that they are just another anti American, God hating, pseudo-intellectual, group of liberals set on the banishment of other peoples freedoms in favor of their own.
Understanding that the worship of God is only one small part of what being religious means, there are few groups that are as religious as atheist. The dictionary defines religion as “the service and worship of God or the supernatural.” A second definition is “a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices”. Basically it’s this belief and practice, that man is the only god, that has become the atheist‘s religion. While man may possess many great traits and abilities he has yet to create one single solitary thing, the best he has been able to do is re-arrange and combine things that were already here.
For me every person has the right to worship anything they choose but they have no right to prevent me from exercising that same right. Sacrificing babies on the alter of selfishness is disgusting yet I must accept that some believe in that religion. The difference is that when a person practices that religion it becomes the most hideous of murders and steals the rights of that child, thus imposing another’s destructive will on them.
posted by Allen Barrett | 12:04 PM
125 Comments:
I think that at next year's graduation ceremonies earplugs should be passed out. If someone doesn't want to hear the prayer, they can plug their poor ears.
"Sacrificing babies on the alter of selfishness is disgusting yet I must accept that some believe in that religion."
Statements like this just prove yet again how mind-numbingly ignorant you really are WAB.
Anonymous Thursday, June 09, 2011 4:10:00 PM, Do you ever actually read the topics before you post?
5:02
You hit the nail on the head. His/Her statement "Statements like this just prove yet again how mind-numbingly ignorant you really are"
describes him/her to a tee.
3:23 has the right idea.
Better to be ignorant than a baby killer 4:10.
Just what part of that statement did you find to be ignorant.
For all these non believers and anybody that want to find out about our founding fathers go to www.wallbuilders.com or david barton.com.They have aquired thousands of documents of our first leaders. They clearly show how they wanted our country to be.Did you know that around twenty seven or so were seminary grads? Our country was founded on Christian beliefs like it or not,but it cannot and will not be denied.Look it up everyone please.
Jerry Smith
I've been shocked at some of Giles county people posting, but to learn someone from Giles County turned in the prayer in to Freedom of Religion people.
I hope it was just some stupid person wanting to get at Tee Jackson. Well he/she hurt Giles County.
What do they think Jackson can do about it now. The person that prayed didn't work for the school system so he can't be fired.
Prayer being taken out of schools could be what's wrong and why so many killings.
As for me and my house we will pray and worship as we please,which is to worship our Lord and Savior.I had rather be called a Christian anytime than just Religious.
@10:04am YES!!!! DO WHATEVER YOU WANT IN YOUR OWN HOUSE! Do "as you please" in church and in your own home... but keep it out of the schools, out of government, and off public property.
The organization's name is FREEDOM *FROM* RELIGION FOUNDATION.
The point FFRF is trying to make is that you can believe whatever you want to believe, but don't foist your beliefs on others.
This is enough of a big deal that it made NATIONAL NEWS... It's yet another embarrassment for Pulaski, proving once again that we're just an ass-backwards little town.
This pretty much sums it up: http://scottklarr.com/media/atheism/motivationalPosters/atheism_motivational_poster_39.jpg
Wait until June 25th when the KKK rolls back into town, so our local stupidity can be the front page news again!
As I stated in the opening thread Atheism is every bit as much a religion as is Christianity. The Freedom From Religion Foundation and those like them seek to remove all public interaction with Christianity and replace it with nothing. Has the FFRF made any efforts to curb or banish all public displays of Islam of course not. Christianity is their target it always has been and most likely will be. The dishonesty and prejudice of such groups is legendary. It seems that 11:14 prejudice is showed only by their ignorance about religion.
Well let's see Hazel P, the idea that all atheists are "sacrificing babies" is pretty ignorant. I've never seen a link between atheism and abortion. In fact I am willing to bet there are a lot of "Christian" daughters including pastor's daughters who have had secret abortions.
And Jerry Smith, David Barton's theories have been disproven by many legitimate historians, you might want to look that up. But you and I both know you won't because anything that threatens your small minded view is met with anger and vitriol. And if you don't know what vitriol means you can Google it.
TO ANONYMOUS 12:32,,,Name one real historian who can prove that Mr. Bartons "theories" are wrong.Whoever you are talking about must be athiest like you.
All the documents that Mr. Barton shows is authenic.You don't seem to know as much about me as you think I have looked at his unbelieveing people's,prove that his documents are not real.I don't look at his theories,I look at the documents. Have blessed day.
Jerry Smith
How do you know I am an atheist? Just because I do not think and act like you Jerry or subscribe to the nonsense I hear on Fox News or the 700 Club or Wallbuilders, does not mean that I am not a person of faith. There are plenty of people who believe in God and do not believe in the Christian nation myth. Any historian worth his or her salt could see the gaps in Barton's research. But what I say does not matter to you Jerry, no about of talking can change a mind that's been made up.
And by the way I appreciate the passive-aggressive "Have a blessed day." LOL
2:58 you are right what you say does not matter to me.Name one historian who can prove that Mr. Bartons documents are not real.As I said I look at the documents,not him. Sure my mind is made up and so is yours.LOL to you too.
Jerry
Let's see Jerry, Randall Balmer from Columbia University, Derek Davis from Baylor University, John Fea from Messiah College, Richard Pierard from Indiana State, Mark Lilla from the University of Chicago, J. Brent Walker Executive Directer of the Baptist Joint Committee, Paul Harvey from the University of Colorado, and Randall Stephens from Eastern Nazarene University just to name eight. But I know what you are going to say, "Them folks there are just liberal academics" well historians are academics and most historians work at universities.
Barton cherry picks his "documents" some of which are unconfirmed meaning he does not have the original sources. But like I said before you've already made up your mind so all this is really pointless.
FYI: Jesus' Teaching on Prayer (Matthew 6:5-9)
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name...
http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/6.html
The problem I have with allowing any type of religious prayers - Christian or otherwise - in a public setting is that one person's interpretation of ancient books of faith is likely to differ greatly from another person's interpretation - namely mine! It is undeniable that what we read today has been translated from text written thousands of years ago. So, all of the lessons from the bible that I teach my children to live by could be poorly referenced by some clown with self-imposed religious authority and an agenda to further his religious career. I don't need anyone outside my home or church telling my kids what they should think.
excellent 1:03
I have had an experience with these free thinkers and they are rude! They came to our church and interuppted our program. They were very disruptive. I understand they have a right to believe (or disvelieve) the way they want but they do not have the right to come on church property and act they way they did. Those are just plain bad manners! Apparently their Mama forgot to teach them manners and not just about Jesus Christ.
1:03
Yours was an excellent post, and I agree with you.
I particularly liked the last two sentences where you made mention of self-imposed autority and an agenda to further self along with those from outside telling our kids what to think.
I believe the same principles contained in those two sentences can be applied to those who are now here in Giles County stirring up all the trouble and strife they possibly can. They are those who would belittle and accuse others of either apathy , ignorance, or deliberate promotion of wrong. Yes, those principles would certainly apply.
Again, excellent post.
1:03 Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Took the words right out of my head.
8:37 Who exactly are you referring to? I cannot think of anyone new to Giles county who is stirring up strife, etc. If you mean WAB he has lived here for over 20 years.
4L52
I don't think anyone suggested just how long these people have been here, but we both know it is true. Why do you think WAB would be a suspect in the troublemaking and strife?
1:03--Does that mean teachers should not direct your children or is this all about the bible? Clarify.Who are the clowns?
8:51 WAB comes to mind because every negative statement you make involves him and your unhealthy obsession with him.
It's small-mindedness like yours that has kept Giles County from growing and given Christians bad names.
It's one thing to be ignorant it's a whole different thing to be satisfied being ignorant.
Why are schools required not to have prayer at assembly yet Giles county government has prayers before meetings? I dont think the City of Pulaski has prayer prior to their meetings. Why is it allowable in some places but not others?
Well, well, well, I was wondering when it was going to hit the fan. I understand about the separation of church and state. However, praying in school is not, I repeat NOT, unconstitutional. Some one show me in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, where it says anything about the separation of church and state. If you find it in there, I will run naked on the square. And that would not be a pretty sight. What none of you is considering, is maybe you are all wrong. Figure this, Why did the Puritans leave England? Hm mm? Let's see, as George Carlin said, they were slave owners who wanted to be free. Oxymoronic, huh? Truthfully though, they left because they were being told how they could worship. Who was telling them this? The King. I know, I know, you say I have just proven your point. But, I have just begun. Who was telling the King what to do? That's right, the Church!!!! So, when the Puritans left, it was because of the church. Now, where did this whole idea of the separation of church and state come from? It came from Thomas Jefferson's personal letters. Basically what was trying to be done, is to keep the church out of the government. That was what started problems then. A theocracy is the worst form of government there is. Just look at history. Now, Annie, here are my questions for you, if you do not like prayer at school, why do you not get upset when there are Muslim prayer rooms at our schools? Does this not infringe upon the same rights you are so adamantly opposing and supporting? How about the student that was quietly sitting in the lunchroom, at a table by herself, reading her Bible, and was told by a teacher to go to the office, and the student was then suspended. Dis this offend you, or did it offend you because she was reading the Bible? How about the teacher that was fired for sitting in the teachers lounge on her lunch break, and the principal walked in and told her that she was seen reading her bible, (which she was) and she was fired. Did this offend you? I am so sick and tired of people using their so called rights to dictate my freedoms. I believe in prayer at school. If you don't fine, but I am tired of people being offended by "Oh he is praying on school grounds." You all disgust me. Deal with the important things, unemployment, cancer, AIDS. If you think my Christian beliefs are wrong, oh well. I don't try to beat you over the head with it, but if saying a prayer at school offends you, I will go before the school board and see if next year, you can have the exact same amount of time to speak out about your religious beliefs. OK, Thanks.
7:40 Excellent post.
To 7-40 ......
In general yours is a good post containing fair comments until you get to "I believe in prayer at school " ....at which point you fail to define WHAT prayer , by whom and under what circumstances .
Do you mean ONLY 'generic' christian prayer ? What about Confucian?, Taoist ? Buddhist ? Islamist etc etc ...dont they ALL have rights to equal time ?...of which THE most equal time is NO TIME AT ALL !!
If you personally wish your children to start off (and finish ?) their day with a prayer to some version of 'god' -whether christian or other flavour -then why dont YOU hold it in the privacy of your home before they go to school to learn readin', ritin' and rithmetic but NOT anyone's form of religion.
Did you say you dont have time to do that every day ? But it's OK to take up the school's time which we ALL pay for via our taxes ?
I think your idea of people with different religious OR non-religious !! ideas being asked to speak on an equal opportunity basis in schools is an outstanding and LONG overdue one .
I'll give a talk on agnosticism . What's your topic ? remember we only get 5 minutes PER religion per class per year . Will your flavor of 'christianity' be the one your neighbour wants for their kids ? DO let us all know when you're going in front of the all knowing schoolboard -and please make a point of asking for equal time there for the rest of us to support or refute your thesis.
A point of English history for you ....by the time the Puritans sailed from England , Britain had undergone severe and necessary religious pruning under Henry the 8th and a bunch of his successors such that the church did NOT under any circumstances tell the king (or Queen Elizabeth 1 ) what to do .Read up about it-getting rid of a dominating religious presence from any government is a harrowing process . Which is precisely why the founding fathers -who thought of them selves as Englishmen abroad -who were versed in ENGLISH history , took such great pains to write a constitution that kept away from ANY expression of religious belief other than the very generic "In god we trust ' which doesnt say "In ONLY our paternalistic version of an all seeing and christian god we trust " which seems to be your inference .
A. G. Nostic
You know waht you get when you cross a Mormon with a atheist? Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason!!!!!
11:44 Are you an Atheist or Muslim?
I noticed you didn't make God with a capital G.
All these people come to the United States and want us t speak their language makes me mad. Learn our language or go home.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Under the Constitution if one feels the need to share their religious beliefs through prayer at any public meeting or through any public establishment then it is that persons right as it is any one else right to be given the same consideration at that time to share their beliefs through prayer or public statement.
Everyone believes their view on religion to be correct but yet most individuals disagree or interpret scriptures, theologies differently.
Could a public servant not silently pray before the official start of the meeting and accomplish the same result in the eyes of the lord and not subject those who choose not to follow in the identical path as the one giving the prayer to his or her theology.
When serving the public all citizens are to be served and rights protected and beliefs respected. Many public servants take an oath to uphold the constitution and protect all citizens rights under the constitution but many forget about that oath five minutes later and choose to protect only those who believe the same way as they do or promise to vote for them.
Monday, June 13, 2011 11:44:00 AM
So, Gnostic, or Agnostic? I appreciate either. I understand the feeling behind them, it has taken me years to understand my own belief system. However, we need to go back to the original topic, and that is whether prayer in school is unconstitutional. No one has shown me the proof that I asked for. Where do the words separation of church and state appear in the constitution? They do not, therefore the whole point should be moot. Once again, I have no idea how saying a small prayer could hurt anyones feelings. I am all for freedom in this country, but it seems that lately, my freedoms are being trod upon.
And as far as the school board being all knowing, you haven't met some of them, have you?
“What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value….” Thomas Paine
When this nation was established it was perhaps the most unique creation of government that had ever existed. It was a system of self-government, by the people for the people, with individual liberty and limited government.
It was a government confined to the defense of the individual, their pursuit of life, liberty, property and happiness, basically those inalienable rights endowed by our Creator. After God the individual came first. With the consent of God and the individual the government was charged with protecting the life, liberty and property of those individuals equally.
Now while that all sounds simple and good there’s a problem with a democracy. A democracy is controlled by half the people plus one, that’s the majority and a majority can become very abusive to the minority and especially to the individual as we have seen numerous times in the past and more recently. This was something of great concern for the founders. Based on their private writings and public statements these founders recognized that the only sovereign power over men and nations is not the state or the majority but God Himself. Freedom is impossible to maintain unless those who are free are willing to exercise self-restraint. It was their view that only in Christ could both freedom and self restraint be found. The concept of a secular state was non-existent in those early days and to think it was, is to totally misunderstand and twist history.
Some have tried to make much of the fact that there is no reference to Christianity in the Constitution but why would there be? Why would there be an attempt to re-establish a situation they had just fought so hard against that of a church controlled state. The freedom of the first amendment is FROM federal interference not from religion. Separation of church and state… absolutely but by no means was their meant to be a separation of God from government.
In 1892 the Supreme Court of the United States handed down this decision in the Church of the Trinity vs United States.
“Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian… This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation….. We find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth… These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”
The problem isn’t so much one of not allowing people to engage in public expressions of worship, it’s one of denying Christians the opportunities that exist for other religions in this country. There is no other religion under such a vicious attack as Christianity. Let the atheist go to Iran and declare with the same vigor that God does not exist they won’t even do that in this country choosing instead to attack the Christ followers, demanding such absurdities as Santa Claus be used in public displays at Christmas instead of a Crèche. It’s OK to display a menorah but not a cross when the government has no right to prohibit either.
As a nation we have esteemed too lightly that which was gained by such great cost.
The value of our freedoms has spiraled downward with the exact same speed as the value we have placed on Christ.
WAB,
I agree with the majority of your previous post but as I understand it the founding fathers were not exactly christian. Many of them were Fundamental Deists in which they did believe Christ was a man and existed but was not the physical embodiment of the Spirit. In fact some felt that it was blasphemous to put Christ before God or as a gatekeeper to God as man is to worship no other God. Another felt Christ, on a list of three, is the third man that every one should strive to emulate
So with those that share a belief that man may only be saved through Christ and those that believe their relationship with God could be achieved in a direct line, their is still a difference in a perception or desire to worship essentially the same Creator and our Founding Fathers were perceptive enough to see this and protect every individual from oppression of their belief system.
However because a decision is made in the Court's one hundred years later to view this as a Christian nation does not mean that is the express will of the Founding Fathers or the way they intended for this nation to be represented.
Good post.
In 1952 President Truman established one day a year as a "National Day of Prayer." In 1988 President Reagan designated the First Thursday in May of each year as the National Day of Prayer. In June 2007 (then) Presidential Candidate Barack Obama declared that the USA "Was no longer a Christian nation." This year President Obama canceled the 21st annual National Day of Prayer ceremony at the WhiteHouse under the ruse Of "not wanting to offend anyone" BUT... on September 25, 2009 from 4 AM until 7 PM, a National Day of Prayer FOR THE MUSLIM RELIGION was Held on Capitol Hill, Beside the White House. There were over 50,000 Muslimsin D.C. that day.
HE PRAYS WITH THE MUSLIMS! I guess it Doesn't matter if "Christians" Are offended by this event - We obviously Don't count as "anyone" Anymore.
7:06,
Obama is a complete failure. I hope the people that voted for him are getting their fair share of the HOPEless policies that he has signed into law. It just goes to show the mentality of the people in this country. It is all about celebrity and media spin. Just remember that the average IQ in the U.S. is 100. That means 50% are below 100. Now guess how he was elected?
DAW
7:06 But Christians aren't allowed to pray in public.
7:35 You got that right.
I like what your grandfather said about the signs. If I wanted a bridge named after my relative I should pay for the sign and any other expense because of it. Not other tax payers.
See some waste can be cut out.
This is a follow-up to Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:42:00 PM's question.
regarding my post on Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:03:00 AM
I was not referring to teachers as being clowns. I was stating that I would not want my children exposed to some authority figure addressing a large audience of adults and kids talking about religion - any religion - whether it be a simple prayer or anything more.
If someone wants to designate time during school for their child to pray - though it goes against what Matthew 6:5-6 states (sorry, Christians) - that's how time during recess, homeroom, or study hall can be used.
If a school has a policy in place which prohibits teachers and faculty from openly reading religious materials, it is not necessarily there to discourage people from being religious. It may be to protect those people from the persecution of religious fanatics who fear others who think differently than they do. Imagine the reaction of the general population of teachers if a new arrival was seen reading a book from the church of scientology. Think about it.
It's not always an attack against you and your freedoms. If you are so insecure about what you believe, I'll be glad to point out some verses from the guidebook of your choosing that encourages you to be a better person.
Open your minds.
7:06 your post is nothing but drivel proven again and again to be untrue. It is nothing more than a character assassination. We will see the integrity of WAB and whether or not he will delete it.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/prayerday.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
I guess 5:40 needs to crawl into a hole somewhere now.
No baby I'm in the light, speaking truth to ignorance. You can stay in the dark of your own stupidity all you want, but the truth will set you free.
I went to the sites 6:03 gave and it does say it's FALSE.
I don't know how things like this can get sent out and lots of people believe.
I still Obama isn't a good president.
Noticed he will wear a US flag pen now.
What a retard Obama lover. Ignorance is supporting that idiot. Go back and hide in your cave.
5:40
Integrity? Now that's a laugh.
"What a retard Obama lover" Your words speak to your character far more than anything I could say.
Well, we have done it again, gotten off subject. Let's get back to the FFRF and whether we should be allowed to pray at graduations. I personally think we should allow the students and or parents to vote on it, and let them decide. Let the people who are involved make the decision. Then if there is a few who don't want the prayer at least they know their vote was heard.
It is established law that school-sponsored prayer is unconstitutional. That is why the schools backed down immediately upon receiving notice from FFRF. It is an affront to parents' right to inculcate their children in their chosen religion, or lack thereof, for the majority religion to force its way onto captive schoolchildren.
Anyone can pray privately at any time. The bible is full of references to Jesus' preference for private prayer, and calls public prayer hypocritical. I was raised in this belief -- that public praying cannot escape from being self-aggrandizing and more performance for the audience than what should be a deeply personal and private conversation between oneself and one's God.
I do not think it is right to force one's beliefs on others who do not share them, especially little children who only want to go to their elementary school graduation. All those who are lamenting the withdrawal of public praying at school events would have an entirely different attitude if they themselves were in the religious minority. Please, our country is all about respecting the rights of people to choose their own religious experiences.
10:44
How did the school system back off when they received a notice from FFRF?
Just wondering what and if anything was done.
How is asking for God's blessing be self aggrandizing? And to follow your logic, and yes I have read the passage you reference from the Bible, that would mean for our Preachers, Pastors and Rabbis to pray out loud for us would be hypocritical, or if we were to have a group prayer, that would be hypocritical also. I believe that God would not get upset if we were to ask for his, or her blessing in public. I do think that if we do not stand up for our rights though, we will lose them all together. And as far as it being established law that school sponsored prayer is unconstitutional, do you think maybe the law is wrong? But go back to my earlier comment, if you cannot have a christian prayer at school, why then are schools allowing muslim prayers to be said on school property and in special rooms set aside for the muslims. I understand that their faith requires them to pray multiple times daily, but that would then be unconstitutional on school grounds. Christians have the same rights as do every other religion, but lately it seems that anytime a Christian speaks out or tries to pray in public someone gets offended. Well I am offended with the way Christians are being treated.
1:44, in my opinion, it is self-aggrandizing because it is a performance, not a personal communication between a person and his or her God. You cannot be up in front of a bunch of people praying without your thoughts turning to impressing other people, instead of intimate contact between you and your deity.
Further, it is in my opinion rude to subject other people and their children to this kind of performance against their will. If you go to a private room with other willing people, that is choice. If you make listening to it a price of admission to a public school event, it is coercive and a violation of the other people's right to be left out of your particular religious beliefs.
I do not understand why some Christians feel it necessary to make such a public display, foisting their religion off on people who do not share it, and why they do not respect the rights of other people. I do not see that Muslims, for example, are trying to make everyone else participate in their religious rituals, unlike some Christians.
To the 2:22 poster.
You are just wrong on so many levels it's really hard to identify just where you are right.
The objection Jesus had about public prayer was founded solely in the behavior of some of the Pharisees who had begun making a spectacle of their prayers to focus attention on themselves. There are many example in both the Old and New Testament of public prayers and praying. Yes, some today still use public prayers to focus attention on themselves, to impress and to speak to a human audience but that is their problem. Many times people who pray using old English or flowery terms simply do not understand. I believe a heartfelt prayer regardless of where it's offered is something God responds to while one of self promotion is only good for the ears of the fool speaking. It is, however not another humans responsibility to judge the motivation or the level of sincerity in the speakers heart.
Do you consider it rude that you might have to listen to a child recite some poem while you are forced to wait to hear your own child recite? Do you not have the choice to walk out of that room until the prayer is over? Is it not just as rude to require that you sit in a crowded, hot room and listen to a commencement address? Do you demand the school dispense with commencement addresses because you are annoyed. I personally find it very rude to be in a group and some person's cell phone goes off with some totally inappropriate remarks as ringtones. I fear we have become hyper-sensitive and now feel it's our obligation to be offended by every little thing. Requiring the world to conform to each individual's wants is not going to happen.
Now the most egregious part of your comment is "I do not see that Muslims, for example, are trying to make everyone else participate in their religious rituals". Perhaps you were sleeping or watching CNN during the recent Moslem's slaughter of Christians in Egypt.
"Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.”
"Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This is what Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.”
Yousef Al Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist organization, the Muslim Brothers, urged on Al Jazeera TV (Jan. 9, 2009) Muslims to kill the Jews, not only in Israel but also worldwide. He added, “No peace can be made between us (Muslims) and the non-believers. This is what our holy book says. This is what Allah says.”
The torture of non-Moslem's in Iran; Iraq; Turkey; Nigeria, Indonesia and elswhere must have slipped under your radar but how did the murders in El Paso and New York slip by you. Jihad is not an ice cream flavor but a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty against non Moslems. Christ Followers have no command to "make" others be Christians or die. Can you give me a modern day example where a Christ Follower killed a large number of other people simply because they were not Christians?
There may be many legitimate reasons to criticize Christians but your comments reveal only your self-centered attitude and lack of knowledge about Islam and many of its followers.
Barrett, You are as hyper- sensitive as anyone in town. You can't deny that. A Christian shouldn't have to pray in public to prove themselves to the Lord. If people don't want to hear it, the Christian way would be to not force it on them.
Mr. Barrett, I do not understand your way of thinking. You seem to be confused and off-topic. I will ask some simple yes/no questions, and we'll go from there:
1. If a member of the church of scientology requested to pray to his God aloud at his child's kindergarten graduation - using the microphone where all who are present would hear - would you allow it?
2. And if you were an administrator of said assembly, would you request a written transcript of the proposed prayer as well as a "kill" switch to disconnect the microphone in case the speaker strayed from the approved text?
3. Would you allow free and unrestricted access to everyone who wishes to pray into the microphone at public events?
4. Would you enforce a limit on duration of the prayer?
5. If a muslim assured you that they had no intention of killing all non-muslim's or encouraging such behavior, would they qualify to speak?
You see, you can't make the rules based on the majority's preferences.
You wrote, "The objection Jesus had about public prayer was founded solely in the behavior of some of the Pharisees who had begun making a spectacle of their prayers to focus attention on themselves."
How do you know what Jesus' objection was founded upon? Matthew 6:5-6 reads quite clearly to me. Was this your interpretation?
You also wrote, "Yes, some today still use public prayers to focus attention on themselves, to impress and to speak to a human audience but that is their problem."
No. That is all of our problem, especially when impressionable children are in the audience. Like I stated before, I don't want to have to explain to my kids that what they heard from some clown on a stage was not what is in line with my family beliefs. I have enough challenges keeping my kids from being exposed to the nastiness of mainstream modern life in these United States. Keep ALL RELIGION out of PUBLIC schools. If people want their kids to experience religion presented by others during school, there are non-public options for them.
5:00 What makes you think Christians only pray in public.
I pray driving my car, then pray for my safe trip and God watching over me.
There is nothing wrong in praying in public.
I take it you don't believe in God.
Sorry you have trouble understanding my way of thinking but it can’t possibly be any more difficult that I have understanding your way of thinking. I addressed my comments primarily to the writer of 2:22 who had identified themselves as anonymous. 2:22 PM had made some rather odd statements and very naïve observations and I responded to each so just what did you consider off topic? Are you the anonymous 2:22 poster now identifying yourself as Apple Pi or am I dealing with two different personalities? It really doesn’t matter other than in helping with clarification.
It is very seldom that I have seen a simple yes or no answerable question.
Question one: I am not threatened by people of different religions simply because I do not believe as they do. I would have no objection to anyone who had a child participating in the ceremony offering up a prayer. I would not participate but I would as respectfully observe the activity as I would the playing of another country’s national anthem.
Percentage wise Baptist have been as persecuted as any other religious group through the ages.
Question two: Why would any reasonable person require a “written transcript” of anyone’s prayer? Everyone should be responsible for their speech and actions but censorship, except for disgusting vulgarities, is not something I support.
Question three: This depends totally on what you mean by “free and unrestricted access to everyone”? If the matter is only about prayer I would not deny anyone who had a child participating from offering up a public prayer on behalf of that family and those of that religion. That might mean two maybe even three prayers before an athletic event or an assembly of students.
Question four: Of course not. I have never opposed time limits on speakers only on their not being treated equally. Simply because time is valuable, limits must be placed on speakers at times as long as every speaker is allowed to speak and have the same reasonable amount of time.
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Question five: I have no problem with a Moslem prayer. The problem is with those who embrace a religious/political movement that calls for violence as a means of conversion and to accomplish goals. If the Pope declared a religious war against all non-Catholics and suddenly Catholics began blowing up public buildings and flying planes into occupied buildings I would have the same reservations about Catholics that I have about Moslems. My younger brother is a Catholic and should that happen I would be suspicious of him. To not be cautious when dealing with a declared enemy is simply nothing short of a suicide gesture.
When did I ever say the rules should be made simply based on the majority? What I did write on 13 June at 4:28 was that, “there’s a problem with a democracy. A democracy is controlled by half the people plus one, that’s the majority and a majority can become very abusive to the minority and especially to the individual as we have seen numerous times in the past and more recently. This was something of great concern for the founders. Based on their private writings and public statements these founders recognized that the only sovereign power over men and nations is not the state or the majority but God Himself. Freedom is impossible to maintain unless those who are free are willing to exercise self-restraint. It was their view that only in Christ could both freedom and self restraint be found.” All too often the majority acts more like a thuggish mob than a reasoned society.
You asked, “How do you know what Jesus' objection was founded upon?” Well, because he tells us very clearly but you have to read more than just the two verses you mention. The whole 6th chapter of Matthew speaks to his objection and when you couple that with many other verses you get a well developed picture that anything done toward God must be done with sincerity. From the widows mite to the seeking of forgiveness must be with the sincerity of faith.
Finally you stated that, “I don't want to have to explain to my kids that what they heard from some clown on a stage was not what is in line with my family beliefs. I have enough challenges keeping my kids from being exposed to the nastiness of mainstream modern life in these United States”. Based on that I suppose your children are not allowed to watch TV; Go to the movies; Listen to the radio; Have sleepovers; Attend School or visit any doctor or dentist for fear they will be exposed to “some clown” who might say something that would make an impression on them contrary to your family beliefs.
Now a question for you since I tried to answer all your questions, Do you believe that Christians who contribute to the school budget via their tax monies should they have a say in what that school teaches or should that benefit be only for the agnostic, the atheists, the Moslem, or anyone else other than the Christ Follower? You see that is the bottom line Christ Followers are being pushed aside and their rights are being denied in favor of other louder groups.
I attended a meeting where the speaker started out with a Hebrew prayer. I knew nothing he said, then he told us he was Jew and the rest of his speech I understood. Everyone I saw respected him and applauded when he finished whether they liked what he said or not.
Something is wrong with anyone that would of gotten mad about that.
WAB,
I agree with most of what you said. I, for one, want my kid to be exposed to almost everything. However, I want to control the age in which he is exposed. If he only thinks what me and his mom think, he will probably be a problem in public. (that was meant to be funny, yet true)
The only place that I would argue is that Christianity is a religion just like any other. You aren't being oppressed, we are just at an age where it is best to be neutral in public. I personally have no problem with prayer in schools, but I also understand that some people may not want it. We still need to say the National Anthem everyday. We are all Americans and kids should grow up appreciating that. We have to be more open to other peoples opinions. Religion is a personal belief. I can see how both sides of the issue would have a good argument. The best way to solve it is to leave religion out of public gatherings. It doesn't make you or anyone else love God any less.
DAW
Mr. Barrett,
You asked, "Do you believe that Christians who contribute to the school budget via their tax monies should they have a say in what that school teaches...?"
I can answer this question - if it ends there - with a simple YES, as long any specific religion is kept out of the standard curriculum. If students elect to take a course like "A Survey of World Religions" to learn about others in our world, that is fine; indoctrination is not fine. But your or option to your question goes way off track.
You should probably be suspect of everyone of all religions, just to be safe. You never know how many people are underground, planning to destroy those against them or simply different from them. You know, "Nobody expects the Spansih Inquisition!"
Oh, but then what do you do if someone from your own church goes off the deep end and declares war against all others? Would you renounce your own affiliation, or join the war? That's a big problem with big religion.
I feel that this topic has reached a dead end.
Discussing politics is so much simpler.
To DAW.
I went back and re-read my post and, as I thought, I could find nothing where I stated that "Christianity is a religion just like any other".
While I agree that Christianity is a religion, as are many other religions each deserving of the same opportunities, I would certainly not agree that Christianity is like any other. Even within Christianity there are some major differences in how that Christianity is expressed. There are major and totally insurmountable differences in being a Christ follower and simply being religious.
You state, “You aren’t being oppressed” and I certainly disagree. To oppress means to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority. Any action that prohibits open expression is an act of oppression. Even your next statement, “we are just at an age where it is best to be neutral in public”, is proof of that oppression. Is a Moslem being neutral when wearing a Burka? Is the government being neutral when they use taxpayer money to pay someone to smear fecal matter on the image of Christ? Neutrality is a con that allows the coward to remain silent in the face of an atrocity.
You state, “We still need to say the National Anthem everyday. We are all Americans and kids should grow up appreciating that”. I assume that you meant to say we still need to say the “Pledge of Allegiance” instead of the “National Anthem” and I believe that school should be started each day with the playing of the National Anthem and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, but even those are under attack by the God deniers and nation haters. I am disgusted that in a recent survey over 90% of high school seniors could not name the three branches of government but what was worse is that almost 70% of the teachers failed to answer the same question correctly. So, while we are all Americans we have failed to meet the obligations of being Americans.
To Apple Pi,
Well there you are Apple Pi you totally misunderstand "big religion".
Those who follow Christ have no problem walking away from any group that becomes anti-Christ in their thinking, speech or actions. Baptist and some other Christian groups have no hierarchy outside their individual churches to tell them what they should do or how they should think; each church is made up of those who have chosen to express their beliefs in the same manner. As a Baptist I have every bit as much responsibility and privilege to read and interpret Scripture as the Pastor, the Deacon, Choir Director or any other member and no one has been given authority by God to force me to think, speak or act in any particular way. As a Christ follower each individual has made the decision to allow God’s Holy Spirit to lead them in their studies of Scripture, their beliefs and their actions. God is left to judge the heart of that person. I’m sorry that you have obviously had some bad experiences with religious people, we all have but we must not allow that to destroy our relationship with God.
I apologize for having gone off the topic of this thread but sometimes questions and comments need to be responded to.
Is Apple Pi an atheist or muslim?
Maybe he just don't like and any thread WAB starts.
WAB,
Sorry, I did mean the Pledge of Allegiance.
You are allowed to wear a shirt that says "I Love God" in public. But to stand up in front of a group of people that are gathered and assume they all want to hear you pray is not in the same ballpark.
I didn't say that you said Christianity is a religion just like any other. That was my statement.
You should certainly be confident
enough that you can be neutral in public with your beliefs. There is no problem with going door-to-door and talking with people about God. They have the right to invite you in or tell you to go away. Large groups of people who are at an event for something other than a lesson in religion should have the same right.
DAW
DAW you can't wear that shirt in a lot of schools.
To WAB,Thank you for standing up for your Christion beliefs and explaining them.I am a Baptist but I had rather be called a Christion first. The non Cristians are destroying our country. We need to stand up for our Lord and our country.Thanks
Jerry Smith
Christian beliefs are commendable, but the Lord would have us to live them out in our everyday lives. That means we treat our fellow man as we would like to be treated. To do otherwise defines a pure hypocrite.
"that’s the majority and a majority can become very abusive to the minority and especially to the individual as we have seen numerous times in the past and more recently."
Allen, I hate to disagree with you but lately it is the minority that has been getting it's way. If what you say offends me, I sue, and then it is up to you to prove why what you said is not offensive. That may not be the way it should happen, but you know it does.
You would have to do some better 'splainin' to convince me that Christians' have any intention other than showing off their own piety and force-feeding their religion to people who don't want it, with all this hue and cry about praying at public events. Any Christian who sincerely wants to communicate with his god has that private channel open 24/7. I very seriously doubt that God is impressed with public coercion and breast-beating theatre.
What church is it that don't believe in praying in church, that you go in the closet and pray? I've visited a few different church and they all prayed in church.
8:34 but have you visited all churches?
2:12 No, not all, but if you will tell me the one that don't pray in church I will visit and see what it's like.
I had never heard of a church that didn't pray at their meetings until I read the letters to the editor this week in local paper.
I believe you misread that letter to the editor 4:20.
10:27 I hope that's what I did, but I went over it again trying to figure if that was what she said, because I had never heard of it.
She said she was raised in a church that didn't believe in public praying.
So if you pray in church is that not public praying?
If I saw someone standing on the street corner praying, I would wonder about them. It might be the thing to do, but I would wonder.
I bet a lot of too late praying was going on when it rained 40 days and 40 nights. And will go on when the world comes to an end.
just wish Bill Holt would have called for Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu praYer(because he always "changes it up") and we could all watch as you holy rollers started foaming at the mouth...
There are two aspects to the "public" concept. The first is more religious, and has to do with whether you are following the bible and communicating privately with God, rather than showing off your piety to others.
The second is more civic, and has to do with whether you are in a private venue such as a house of worship where people are there by choice and consent to participate in your activities, versus a public venue such as a football stadium or auditorium where people are there for another purpose and do not consent to participate in your religious practices.
I think that both of these are valid. But the folks who want to stand up in front of everyone and show off, or who want to force their religion onto others, can't see either perspective on it.
Years ago, there was prayer before games.
People didn't get there panties in a wad then or feel anyone was forcing their religion on them.
This nation was founded, not by religionist but by Christians, not on religion but on the gospel of Jesus Christ..Patrick Henry May 1765
I understand the gentleman that complained was from Jewish descent. He has served our country, but never heard he was atheist. When the word gets out as to who he is I'm afraid his parents business will go down the tubes. My opinion and my opinion is if you don't like it get the hell out and find you a country that will let you live like heathens. Prayer being taken out of the schools took the only opportunity some children have to learn about a higher power and it isn't the atheist higher power. If people don't start banning together and take our country back we will all have to hide our Bibles, get in the closet to pray and let the nonbelievers take over. Our country is in a mess. To many people from other countries are here and we are forgetting that if you are born in America you are American. There shouldn't be anything else added to it. American is American. Keep your heritage alive, but if you were born here you are flat out an American
Not all people born here have a love for America including obama who wants only to make us part of his one world marxist government. Even now he has used authority from NATO to override the Constitution.
Spontaneous prayer is ok in school activities such as before a ballgame as long as it isn't PLANNED or announced! It cannot be written on the Program as "prayer by someone"! IT MUST BE UNANNOUNCED AND SPONTANEOUS.
The prayer at PES was NOT listed on the program that day. It was ok to have it like they did it.
Are any of you old enough to remember when we had a Baccalaureate on Sunday night before graduation? We were required to attend and we rotated pastors from different religions to lead those. Of course those were still in the day that we had God in school. We really need Him back along with responsible parents who will allow discipline of the little darlings.
3:42 If you know who it is, please tell.
I don't want to have anything to do with his parents business.
I've never thought Jews would do something like that.
6:10,
Do you know how redneck your comment sounds? That is very typical of Giles County thinking. Terrible. I can definitely tell that some of you never leave the county. That is probably best.
8:44 Hey hot shot I don't live in Giles County anymore. Too much crazy things going on there.
Hi Fred.
Then why are you worried about his parents business you redneck?
Now who's calling people names?
8:59,
If you don't live here because too much goes on, why are you being nosey and making hillbilly comments?
6:39 What is your thoughts about NBC editing out the words Under God from the pledge the children said?
I posted 6:10 and just got back on.
See I'm a red neck is that because I was born and raised in Giles county?
That's ok, I'm not drunk or a child.
No, being a redneck is when someone refuses to do business with someone because of their beliefs. Especially if they aren't radical. Then you made a comment about Jews. Don't forget that Jesus said that he holds a special place for those of Jewish faith.
6:10 again. Of the Jews I'm been friends with, I've never seen one that would say anything about anyone's view of religion. They go where they want to to worship and I go where I want to. We can go out to eat together or just visit at other times.
Someone said it was a Jew that reported it. I'm questioning it.
My not wanting to do business with them isn't because of them being a Jew, it's because they complain about my religion.
They aren't complaining about your religion. They are saying that it isn't appropriate to practice your religion in front of a public gathering where everyone may not want it. I didn't think Christians would want to be so selfish and think that for some reason they have the right to do whatever they want whenever they want. It is a little hypocritical.
9:20 Was you at this gathering and heard what was said that seems to upset you so?
It has nothing to do with what is said. That is what you people don't seem to understand. It is about praying in a public setting where some people don't want to hear it. As Christians, you should respect the rights of others. What makes your religion come first? Nobody is saying that you can't believe in God.
Don't be mislead by 11:14, I don't think he is a Jew. Jews do pray in public and in private; in groups and alone. They are very religious people.
To 9:20 pm, What religion are you talking about? There are many religions.Then you say Christions are selfish. Most Christians don't forse anything on anybody.Seems like you are forcing your beliefs on the Christians.
12;49,
You are trying to force prayer on people. I don't have any beliefs other than I think people have the right to speak up if they don't want to hear a Christian prayer in public. Christians are highly critical of any belief other than their own. That is a fact.
2:18,I ask again which religion are you talking about? You are putting Baptist,Church Of Christ,Methodist all as one and we are not,so please answer the question or shut up. For your information all Christians are not critical of others beliefs.Sure you have the right to not listen,go outside,earplugs work great too. As wab would say"stick your head back in your abdomen" Why can't you answer a simple question? If you need help finding the question,it is at the first part,at the top. Thanks...
3:08
I am talking about Baptists, Methodists, Church Of Christ and all other denominations. I think when I say Christian, if you are one, you would be able to comprehend that they are all under the same umbrella of Christianity.
You prove my point by saying that I could wear earplugs. That is trying to tell me that your way is best and that I should have to deal with overbearing Christians.
Christianity is the religion. All the others are just subgroups of that religion. Maybe you should get more educated in what you believe. Just pray about it.
Maybe you think that members of the Church of Christ are the only ones going to heaven?
I thoughts Jews was also Christians.
Someone said a Jew was the one complained.
3:53 Why do you think 3:08 belongs to the Church of Christ.
All churches are upset about not being allowed to pray.
Did your parents ever take you to church?
I am 3:08 and I am NOT a Church Of Christ,and I don't tell anyone that they are going to hell. That is between God and themselves. We are plainly told that we are not to judge,that is Gods job. I had rather be called a born again Christian.
5:20 how ignorant can you be to say Jews are Christians? Christ was Jewish, Judaism is a predecessor religion to Christianity by a thousand years or so. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the messiah at all. Or were you just pulling our leg? But more to the point, how surprising is it that y'all just don't get why government sponsored prayer is a violation of the very type of intrusion on the private matter of religion that our founding fathers sought to avoid?
Was it a Jew that complained about the prayer to Tee Jackson?
From what I have been reading on here, I would guess not.
Who cares if it was a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu? You all complain about them not wanting you to say a prayer, and most of you would pass out or run out screaming if someone got up and read a passage out of the Quran.
Exactly! Those who are having such a fit over public prayer not being allowed cannot see past why in the world someone is not a Christian. Believe as you please, nobody is telling not to strive as a Christian, just do not expect everyone in your path to follow. Those same people are the ones who have to put a stamp on every single person that may not have the same beliefs as them. Just like wanting to know if it was a Jew who complained. Who cares! It could've been a wonderful person with great morals.
This is the post that started the Jew thing:
Anonymous said...
I understand the gentleman that complained was from Jewish descent. He has served our country, but never heard he was atheist. When the word gets out as to who he is I'm afraid his parents business will go down the tubes. My opinion and my opinion is if you don't like it get the hell out and find you a country that will let you live like heathens. Prayer being taken out of the schools took the only opportunity some children have to learn about a higher power and it isn't the atheist higher power. If people don't start banning together and take our country back we will all have to hide our Bibles, get in the closet to pray and let the nonbelievers take over. Our country is in a mess. To many people from other countries are here and we are forgetting that if you are born in America you are American. There shouldn't be anything else added to it. American is American. Keep your heritage alive, but if you were born here you are flat out an American
Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:42:00 PM
May God Bless Giles County.
American and Christian are not mutually conclusive. This country is not in a mess because of people who aren't Christians.
You people need to get a little more educated about athiests and their philosophy. They have morals and ethics. They just believe that man should do things for each other rather than relying on the power of prayer. You can talk to the wall or floor all day but it isn't going to solve your problems.
I guess if your house burns down, you think that God sent all your neighbors and friends to help you out. Open your minds to the fact that Christianity was created by man when people were being opressed. It was just a way to put people at ease and get them all headed in one direction.
Study religion, not just the bible. It will probably teach you some things that you don't want to hear. It may also teach you that you need to make the best of your life on earth because that may be all you have.
Did God not make Adam and Eve or did we sprang from apes?
6:14,
I guess you think that every person in the world is a descendent of Adam and Eve? Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You need to come up with a better argument than that.
6:56 Was that n answer to 6:14 or just more of your hog wash?
That should be a question that you should ask. If the bible says that God made Adam and Eve, where did all the rest of us come from? We would all be deformed and mentally challenged if we had the same bloodline.
I do believe we evolved, we are still evolving, not from apes, but from an apelike creature. You should read the book " What Evolution Is" by Ernst Mayer. It gives insight as to how we evolved from a single cell organism to what we are today.
I guess you also think that someone rounded up 2 of every animal that currently resides on the planet?
The bible was written by mortal men. It is a guideline with parables that tell us how to live our life.
You think we are still evolving? What will we be next?
We are evolving with technology and science. As humans, we have reached a physical plateau. Now we are using our brains to ensure our existence in the days ahead. If you would have told someone 1000 years ago that we would be discovering space and talking on a computer to people all around the globe, they would have thought you were crazy. We evolve to adapt to changes that we see everyday. Just like animals that adapt to different climates and habitats. The largest setback for human evolution is that we have to keep up those that are a burden to our society rather than live by survival of the fittest.
Burden to our society? Could that mean old people that worked all their life and can't work anymore, they don't need to be drawing Social Security or getting Medicare? Or are you talking about the ones that just want work and have to be on TennCare?
Having babies and not married?
I am talking about the freeloaders. I am glad to take care of the elderly. I also will not discriminate against those having babies that aren't married. Most of the time the grandparents take care of those kids.
I am talking about people who are too lazy to help themselves and the ones that always complain that the government isn't doing enough to help them. If you cut out the monthly checks you might see more people trying to find a job. People aren't coming from Mexico because there aren't any jobs.
I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL!
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
1892 Francis Bellamy (Baptist Minister)-originally published in "The Youth's Companion" as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day
formally adopted as the pledge by Congress in 1942.
President Eisenhower signed a bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954 that put "under God" into the pledge.
Supreme Court decision- West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that public school students are not required to say the Pledge, concluding that "compulsory unification of opinion" violates the First Amendment.[10] In a later opinion, the Court held that students are also not required to stand for the Pledge.[11]
We are a freedom of religion nation.
You know it's comments like that one, 2:03 that make teacher's, parent's and society in general, jobs more difficult than they have to be. Ok so they aren't REQUIRED to say it. Fine, don't say it. That they aren't required to stand is fine also but whatever happened to common courtesy and respect. Would that offend anybody? Your comment smacks of doing as little as possible to get by instead of striving for excellence. It's a mindset. I disagree with Islam, Hindu, and multiple other religions but I wouldn't go out of my way to disrespect them. Standing quietly while the pledge is being said shows respect not acceptance. You think people should go out of their way to be disrespectful. I don't care for our President's politics on most issues, but I do respect the office and would never be rude or belligerent in his presence. It doesn't require any effort to be polite and it in no way compromises a person's value system. Are you one that thinks our National Anthem should be sung in Spanish? I wouldn't expect Mexico's National Anthem to be translated to English in a high touristy area just because American dollars keep the place afloat. I would stand for the anthem but not salute. As a parent, teacher, grandparent, Christian, and American citizen, I would appreciate you stop teaching impressionable children that it is ok to be rude and disrespectful.
Thanks for making mine and so many others jobs more difficult.
Jackson Anthony
10:55 Good post!! Thank You.
10:55
I am stating history as recorded simple as that. Sorry you are reading more into it and if you feel that stating history as it occurred is making your job harder then you are not a very good educator, in my opinion.
I never said for any one to be disrespectful or lazy, only to follow the Constitution and not to use public positions to force their belief systems on any one.
Unfortunately many public servants believe once in a position it gives them a platform to voice their own religious, moral and personal views. I am against this.
The fact that other people have rights under the Constitution to believe as they want, worship as they want, and to not say the pledge if they want, which is not a Constitutional law. You may want to read the court cases I listed before you start crying about how hard it makes your job when you wish to violate some ones constitutional rights. Educate yourself.
And where did the Spanish comment come from? Was that supposed to be funny or just ignorant? And you call your self a teacher.
I will say that your post did hit the nail on the head when it comes to most public servants attitude. Screw the rights of every one else as long as it benefits me personally.
Next time read the post and don't read anything into it that is not there.
Happy Fourth everyone.
May God Bless America and keep it safe.
Have a safe and happy holiday week end.
God Bless Giles County.
The problem with Prayer, the Bible and their interaction with government is that many folks run off about them without much knowledge of either.
Protecting what is dear to us must be our practice at all times not just when we feel one area is about to be taken away. We don't lose our rights, benefits and privileges overnight we allow them to be eroded over time by inattention.
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